Since I haven’t blogged for a while I thought I would respond to this annoying comment from Sean regarding Ben stein and Expelled:
“I have seen the movie and it was quite fascinating. The reason this movie isn’t popular is because it IS a documentary. Don’t compare it to the Michael Moore pseudo documentaries. This movie uses fact, not made up stuff to dramatize it.
Ben Stein is a genius. That is fact. It doesn’t mean he is always right, but it means he has the brain power to analyze data and make conclusions.
Spoiler Alert:
Ben Stein even gets one of the great atheist minds to admit that ID is very possible, as long as the designer isn’t God. And that is the point. The movie never talks about God. It only points out that evolution is so flawed as to be literally impossible. So what are the alternatives? Well, don’t talk about that or you will be expelled.”
Response:
Sure, Ben Stein is a genius. Sean, I would say Expelled takes as many liberties with the truth as Michael Moore’s does in his documentaries and that consequently does Expel does not get precluded from ticket revenue comparisons with “Sicko” or “Bowling for Columbine”. There are numerous blogs that have made the point that nobody in academia, never mind in the movie, has lost their jobs due to their ID or religious beliefs.
Besides what are you saying? There are more liberals that enjoy a documentary than conservatives? Why would say that that be unless you think there are more liberals in the US which is a hell of state of affairs after we have suffered through 8 years of the incompetent Bush administration.
As to the wisdom of Ben Stein well, to be honest with you, I just don’t get it. Nor do I see Richard Dawkins as one of the great minds of science either, atheist or otherwise. Dawkins basically rode the coattails of George Williams regarding the Selfish Gene and has basically suffered from hoof in mouth disease ever since.
As to Ben Stein this is the main who gave you these great quotes:
“It’s also true that the theory (evolution) lends itself to justify atheism, abortion, euthanasia, and eugenics” –as Stein points out.
Here is another quote from Mr. Stein, “Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.
Yes, love of God can lead to compassion and empathy but it has also led to religious wars, the Taliban, the Spanish Inquisition, pogroms, the extinction of aboriginal people and so forth. Science can lead to more efficient ways of killing people, it can even be an excuse for Antisemitism but it can also extend and improve the quality of life for billions of people. Not surprisingly, both belief systems are dual edged swords because, well guess what, man wields the sword.
In your mind evolution may be flawed but unfortunately ID and creationism is a non-starter as scientific process no matter how many mental contortions you go through. Trying to subject the world of science to a cartoon vision of the Bible is not going to cut it as rigorous scientific thought.
Really Sean, what though process do you go through when you a view or find a fossil? Oh, here is god directing nature so that he obtain his finest creation: mankind. How come no creationist never addresses my issue regarding when does God’s designing efforts interfere with our own free will? And if he so busy molding us and the world, you know reducing our jaw size and the like, is it too much to ask him to give the idiot colonels in Myanmar a blood clot in the brain while he is at it? Oh, yeah, he works in mysterious ways! Sorry, the function of science is to solve mysteries and not to perpetuate them.
Erik John Bertel
Author Flores Girl:The Children God Forgot
PS: I still have yet to find a single Expelled Bootleg but there a ton of Michael Moore pirate copies!
Where to begin? Okay I decided, let’s go with the religious backlash comment. Since Kain sounds so old school and is such a true believer maybe we could go with some old, school Taliban style backlash? You know, we out number you so we can round up the heretics and burn them at the stake because they dare question what we the true believers know? That’s what “retarded” fundamentalist religion does to you, it keeps locked you safely in a box until the real world comes knocking at your door, like the wackos in Texas.
What you don’t get with all your huffing and puffing is that science will let you teach ID in a school the day ID becomes a verifiable and working hypothesis, until then it is a matter of faith and conjecture not fitting for scientific study. Do we ask you to teach evolution during your bible studies? You are so damn afraid your kids might think for themselves one day that you will do anything to repress the facts including the existence of the fossil record. If you win on this issue what’s next? Are you going to go back to the earth being at the center of the universe?
So for now let’s address this Christian fundamentalist religious intolerance you are so enamored with. I know Ben Stein and the gang want to blame Darwin and science for the holocaust but that doesn’t address centuries of pogroms against the Jews prior to the existence of Darwin now does it? No, but you know what does? Religious intolerance, in fact, intolerant religions have killed more people than any other cause in the history of mankind and science only helps the wackos to kill more efficiently.
Finally, explain for me how ID doesn’t interfere with the concept of free will if you can? I have yet to hear a plausible explanation for how god directs the evolutionary direction of all living creatures even to this day but doesn’t see fit to get involved with saving the Jews during the Holocaust or the flood victims in Burma. Mighty strange priorities for the almighty if you ask me and one can only conclude that that thread of fundamentalist thinking is both simplistic and hopelessly erroneous.
Erik John Bertel
Kain wasn’t done:
“Wow. Are you seriously this misinformed? 1st off, my comment about the backlash was simply that Rush’s audience outnumbers you at least 2-1 and in a democratic society it’s not good to piss off the majority so yes the best way to educate people to your side of the argument is by true debate in the classroom and not Nazi style exclusion because the latter may end up biting you in the ass when the majority decides to use the same against you and believe me we don’t want our school system to be systems of theocracy. Also, comparing every religious person to the “wackos” in TX is the equivalent of me saying all atheists are the equavalent of Stalin or Mao.
2nd, ambiogenesis isn’t a “verifiable working” anything. It is a hypothesis to the origin of life and nothing more AS IS ID and ambiogenesis is a matter of FAITH for those who have none in a 3rd party (including a god). Also you are making the same ignorant assumptions that we all have a problem with evolution or the fossil record. We all don’t. Evolution describes a natural process that goes on all the time around us. It does not describe the origin of life.
I think your rant pretty much tips your hand on why you are angry with ID. You are intolerant to religions and broadbrush everyone as fundamentalist Christians (which I am not thank you) and see anything that MIGHT challenge your religion of materialism as a threat and you are too closed minded to admit it. Not that it matters, but materialism definitely ranks up there on the “killed more people” list and I would argue that anyone who killed en masse in the name of Christianity was actually following materialism and greed as the Christian religion does NOT advocate violence (i.e. you can’t be a true Christian if you’re acting contrary to the teachings so the Christianity killed more people argument is a logical fallacy).
As for free will, that’s easy. DNA is a source code and was deposited here by a 3rd party to evolve on it’s own. The 3rd party does not interfere in “free will” of the creation. It would be no different than a programmer creating a highly resilient program and depositing it in a hostile environment to see if it could “survive.” Maybe that doesn’t jive with the fundamentalist notion of a Christian God you seem to have but it works quite well for a number of theists. Your questions about god and suffering can easily be answered in any theology 101 course. Regardless, ID supporters are not actively promoting a fundamentalist Christian God but rather the possibility of a 3rd party as being the genesis of life rather than dumb luck even IF that life was started somewhere else in the universe and arrived here by accident and the creator doesn’t know of our existence. ID does not equal the “almighty”. -Kain
My final retort:
Sorry, I’m not buying that there is no tie between the ID faction and religious fundamentalism, the facts speak otherwise. You may not want to be part of the fundamentalist agenda but that is like the brown shirts saying they had nothing to do with the rise of the Nazis. The ID movement is basically a Trojan horse for a whole line of discredited religious thinking. And, I remind you that this entire Nazi thread and all of the attendant outlandish commentary was started first by Ben Stein and the Expelled crowd in the movie.
Also, how and why you attach materialism or the origin of life to Darwinism and the theory evolution of life is beyond me as well. The theory of evolution and Darwinism does not address the origins of life. Moreover, this entire argument reminds me of the fourteen questions the Gautama Siddartha refused to answer and for evolutionists the creation of life is one of those unanswerable questions. Could that change? Of course, as our knowledge base grows I fully expect it to. Maybe we are of Martian origins as the idiot Dawkins was alluding to but that doesn’t mean all life in the universe has to originate in such a mystical or extraterrestrial manner.
The facts remains there is no proof for the ID credo and puh-lease don’t give me that tired old irreducible complexity negative argument. Finally, if a third party did all of the seeding and coding, what was that source code programmed to do, to live and evolve into devout followers? When I write code I usually have an agenda in mind, at least I try to, so what was the goal of the Intelligent creator? How far could such a creative force foresee into the future, I mean RNA and DNA coding takes you in a very specific direction and once again how does a preprogrammed agenda square with free will? I agree with you on one fact, this is theology 101 and consequently it and ID has no place in a science class. And by the way, I am Christian that recognizes when science ends and when my faith begins.
As to the will of the majority, I could give you the old Henrik Ibsen quote about the majority always being wrong, you know the old chestnut about Hitler being voted into office but frankly I am not even going to concede that point. After all, Expelled wasn’t exactly Ironman or Indiana Jones at the box office this spring and going forward Americans are going to have their hands full with other urgent matters after eight years of benign neglect by the Bush administration.
Erik John Bertel